L65 here, worked up from L59 (actually, 10 in the old system).The key is always to keep your eye on the goal. Difference between getting promoted to L65 and joining as new FTE at L65 is HUGE. Thats a very helpful answer. Somebody help me out here. I think that a lot of what you wrote was spot on, although the situation varies somewhat across the company. It varies greatly from manager to skip.The hardest point for me to bear is that I am young, capable of doing so much more, and absolutely dying to do more. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. I changed 3 groups at Microsoft. As HR Director, Claire helps drive the outstanding business impact, cultural transformation, and growth of Microsoft in the UK. Of course I ensure my manager and skip-level are aware of my contribution as a mentor, but I figure that as long as I'm in front of the wave, the best way for me to advance is to move the wave forward. What does that look like in your mind? Ask your VP, give the benefits on transparency from your perspective, and ask their opinion. Take it because it plays to your strengths. For some teams - especially those like Office with few departures release-to-release resulting in level compression - that's a rough bunch. The average entry-level engineer or program manager will have a total compensation of $125,665. Mgmt, MSFT levels: CEO > VP > Partner(Director) > Principal > Sr. Eng > Eng 2 > Eng 1. > Lots of very true points. How? We had a strategic plan for getting me the visibility with the higher-ups that I needed.My promotion to Level 65 during the last annual review period was clearly the hardest. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. They didn't want to plateau, but that is just where they were given MS talent pool. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. "http://www.poppendieck.com/pdfs/Compensation.pdfWorth a read, Lisa. One, we bill customers higher for higher levels and we call everyone 'highly experienced' or even an 'architect'. Email@ elliereinker@gmail.com | Call@ 330-554-0249. This is the multiplier effect, or scope of influence that is often mentioned. B.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, M.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, PhD in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Designing and implementing Software and Hardware Systems, Benchmarking and validating Software and Hardware Systems, Developing innovative solutions and publish papers and patents, Managing teams and keep track of progress, Predicting market trends, identifying market risks, Identifying future opportunities, preparing company roadmap. One of the key lessons is to know who is the gate keeper for your career. It's a question your boss gets asked so it's not a surprise to them. A Senior Director gets a basic salary package of $190,000, which gets as high . I have actively helped people leave MS who were topped out at level at MS but who wanted to do something else. This is so that they can convert those positions to other discipline.i've seen this happening to at least 2 teams so far. So a sub role at L61 = corp L63 and vice versa.So from a sub perspective:L58 and below are relatively junior roles where you have zero influence outside of meeting your commitmentsL59 -> L60 is a tougher jump. After that, I was given a team that was dysfunctional and the most problematic area of the product - now its the area that customers rave about and the team is running smoothly.The bottom line is that takes (1) very hard work (2) you need to build your skills (3) personality to drive the solution in spite of the process and (4) demand excellence from others - including managing out those that will never deliver quality (some folks are net losses to the team).I always hear the whining from folks that get stuck at level 62/63 but when those tough challenges are out there, they don't volunteer and they certainly don't go looking for the biggest challenges. So here's my 2 cents:Read this now and have a game plan for your 1:1s to tee up a deeper discussion at MYCD. Expect my salary to go up after the cleanup. right?). Sort of like grading on a curve in school. Like many technology companies, Microsoft uses levels to indicate seniority for employees, including engineers. Senior-level Marketing Executive with experience in the consumer and B2B industry. The scope and situations have become more and more challenging over time. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. It may be that the policy is to do transparent leveling but it's no one's job to go through and make sure they're up to date. Any suggestions on how to focus on this. Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. I know many that purposely work for Microsoft as contractors just for this reason. You need to consider how you can compete with the pizza eating 25 year olds that don't have a life and work 80 hours a week. All these comments apply generally to any matured company and life in general. If so I wish them good luck - as oppose to the US, these regions have laborlaws which makes it very hard for a company with Microsofts margin to lay people off. You should be on the same side. Doesn't matter 60 or 65, if you find the key to your boss, next level is in your pocket. You forgot "never ask for a promotion".Forgive my cluelessness, but: Why not?MSS. I definitely want to read more soon.Sincerely yoursSteave Markson. The true professional with loads of potential is left to Sulk. There is always a manager who understands the underleveling of Office and old-Windows (hello Sinofsky - promos for all who stuck around regardless of merit!) What I've learned is be very, very specific on your commits and accountabilites. If you are considering leaving your team (or Microsoft) but think you could be persuaded to stay, be careful about how you present this to your manager. Anyone moved from Office to some other part of company? If you push too hard or threaten to leave, you will be written off immediately. Feel free to . But anyway, EOF for that angle. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. The first was the barter (a position exists that I qualify for - give it to me now and I will commit to staying with the team another year. Someone that 20 years ago made something as complex as Notepad may today be a VP, whereas if you make Notepad today you may not even get a pat on the back. YES, life is unfair.At the end, mastering 'soft skills' will help anyone: even someone at 59. Until you can be honest with yourself (and it's not fun, trust me) you will be stuck doing what you're doing and your complaining will be the glue keeping you there. you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point. In the case of the latter, make sure you have the goods, because your manager now must show his/her hand on whether s/he values you. Its, actually, quite a short list. The way to succeed here is to find out how you make you, and your manager, and his/her leads, succeed as a team. How accurate is this most likely Total Pay range (base + additional) of $396K-$652K/yr? "Shock and awe awaits" is correct. Any idea on when is this going to change? If it doesn't, what could you add to make that work? Is that a req. Titles are important, and dont let anyone make you believe otherwise. This is a large part of his job - getting his reports to excel and getting them (and by extension, himself) some recognition.All of the above assumes you don't suck, though. For those impatient folks who want to move up every 18 months, watch out. It varies greatly from manager to skip.The hardest point for me to bear is that I am young, capable of doing so much more, and absolutely dying to do more. Attack problems within your own areas of influence proactively and generate that same good vibe among peers. But the clarity I have through the rear view mirror is staggering -- I was defining myself by what a bunch of poorly skilled managers thought, in a company that hadn't moved it's stock price in seven years. As a member of the Microsoft UK Senior Leadership Team, Olaf leads Microsoft's retail and consumer goods . Risk and return are related. Do you think I can find a way to do almost as well and stay here, in this job I enjoy?" No one wants an employee who is staying for the money -- and you don't want to be that employee, either. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. I guess they are fallible humans too. They came from "hot" product teams. You may not need them to get from 59->60, but if you're good at them, it'll make your rise much quicker. What now? Write it down in a team-culture career section you keep in OneNote (start that section now if you don't have it). I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. Find out if you have a positive trajectory in the stack ranking. But, if you have the possibility of finding a position that you will really enjoy, where your goals and those of Microsoft are fairly close, then your long-term potential will be higher. keep in mind mentors are not one size fit's all. At the beginning of each FY, I always asked, "I want to get Exceeded this year. Salesmanship is extremely important. I know there is always new hope that comes with new leadership, but there is also a restart too. Some were also not very sexy/fun problem but they were all critical to ship. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. Chairman of the Board, Microsoft Corporation. When you see a bozo who is L65 it is highly likely that he had joined MS recently at L64-L65 directly.Here's biggest difference in expectations between levels: The L62 guys are supposed to be able to lead their feature and perhaps influence couple of related features by spreading their best practices. . Otherwise, you start getting limited reviews and your compensation goes down.Obviously there was no advice in this post, but I thought it was an interesting observation, and perhaps the company can learn something from this viewpoint. I started at 59 and just got promoted to 63 a couple months ago. My boss even made mistakes. Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. Would they give you the level if you were not already a Microsoft employee? Whether your manager is hardcore or touchy-feely, you need a bulldog to promote you or you ain't goin' nowhere. Folks, Im really encouraged by this post and the focus on trying to help make others great. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. I came from .NET (no longer there), and there were plenty of Senior IC PMs and Devs.Are you in Test, Marketing or Documentation? Think about why they're able to do that.-jcr. Let's slim down Microsoft into a lean, mean, efficient customer pleasing profit making machine! What's worse is the noise this creates. Mini, all those aspects you list are also present at L62, L65, etc. This slighlty contradicts some of the other posts. Got two promotions - still level 60If you really got promoted twice then you would have advanced 2 levels.Either you didn't actually get promoted, or someone told you lies. I would love to be above 60much less 63. If youve capped out at Level 62 then MS is probably not a great fit for you. Lots of groundwork, considerable drama and leverage but eventually it got done. Any idea on when is this going to change? If you can't ever figure it out, and if you can't become a "favorite underling", then it's time to find a different group with people you can better relate-to. Thats why L64->L65 transition is so hard. When I was an IC, it was tough technical problems or simply critical problems that no one else wanted. If I was 65/66 material, why did they wait until I gave notice to offer me the promotion? "Sad but true. Isn't morale over the holidays going to be just wonderful? Look closely, and you'll probably find that this person is working symbiotically with someone else who masters those skills while lacking others.YES, there are people who've been promoted because they've simply "been there" for a long time. I'm a level 66 dev (architect). Additionally, a Level 62 doesn't really have the tools to evaluate and sell a promotion to a 63. If you are working at Microsoft, plan well to climb up the job ladder. You almost always have to earn it. No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Those teams I used to despise as a L60, and only tolerate as a 63? Starting to reach out and grab some of what you would be doing with a bigger scope/higher level.An earlier poster said it. I think there's only one thing I would add, from the perspective of having been promoted from L59 to L64 in a 6-year period in one org (I left MS in 2006).Sometimes things within an org will turn to complete crap, and either there's not an option to leave or you may not want to. In my co-workers case, they overloaded him with work and then documented anything that fell through the cracks until they had enough to get rid of him.I'm sure HR throttles managers when this is going on. Same applies if you started your career in Test. The microsoft people have already decided you're not a good 'fit'. Here's some advice from a recent L64'er (L63 last year). kc. If you're a manager, what's your L63 promotion philosophy? In response to Kelly Calvert:Regarding..Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. I'm at 62, have been for lo, these many years. "2) Peel the onion. This employer has claimed their Employer Profile and is engaged in the Glassdoor community. Leadership, for instance. When (if) you are then promoted to 62, you are not expected to continue performing at a level 62 level, but rather a level 63 level.The reason that you have to perform at a new level before reaching it is to avoid the Peter Principle, being people promoted up to their level of incompetence. With wide-eyed wonder he asked WHAT? I said whatever the @#$% your manager most needs you to do!6. It sounds fishyMy manager was also saying me something along the same lines. Do a great job and you are likely to revise their expectations for the following cycle. Is it easier to level up in smaller groups (v1 product)? "Well please don't just tease us and leave it there. An Australian graduate with over 23 years of experience in the IT industry covering various business natures and sizes across startups and large corporations taking on roles from full-stack development in both open source and Microsoft technology stack to architecture design and strategic roles such as Technical Director/CTO. A past co-worker of mine had the same thing done to him and now there are two devs doing what he did by himself.I guess Microsoft has its reasons. Because, IMO, that is the jist of jcr's post. Your manager has to know that either you get promoted sometime soon or you will go and get promoted somewhere else. Benefits can add thousands of dollars to your offer. Go for the team that offers the best package right during the transfer. They just plain resonate. It inspired me to write the following dissertation on the subject in hopes that it will be helpful. If you have your mnanager in your pocket, you cna achieve greate heights in life. And I'm hiring, yes, in this economy. This helps us sort answers on the page. This is a discussion to foster debate and by no means an enactment of policy-violation. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. But the opportunities I see doing X seem to be compelling from a financial and growth standpoint. Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. You want to be more efficient, smarter than him. My experience, I joined MSFT at 63 and in 3.5 years I am at 65. It's just that the scope is different. And as my experience shows, many teams do not even staff a senior. Think about it. I'm sure others here will clarify.And apparently we will all know more in January. This is a great topic! I'm now past my time that I can recruit away from MSFT after leaving some time ago. First, they are moving *to* something that they think fits them better -- and bringing an enthusiasm for the new position to go with the better fit. Highly effective Finance leadership; ability to deliver results by leading through example while setting high personal standards; Partnering with the business and influencing . Do a brownbag for your VP level group, record it and send out the link to everyone. Years ago we had a dev on my team who was very high IQ and very driven, but was driving his lead nuts. So he is looking to become partner this year on the team's work. Its a natural consequence of the learning curve. Today's top 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States. Some considerations, based on my own career:- The best way to get to level 63 is moving around, and getting promotions as you move. Ready? My manager and I had a plan to influenc that person and it worked. Alternate to your left hand appropriately when tired. We discussed progress at least once a month. As someone who left MS @ L63 - and supposedly tracking strongly to L64 - and who has seen a lot of questionable promos occur, I think it's fair to say that the rise to "Senior" follows a slighly skewed distribution curve in that in the largest bucket case, you can probably see that L63 was warranted.However, on either end of the distribution, by which I mean people who easily obtained it and people who seriously struggled to obtain it, there are some disturbing anomalies that are difficult to explain away.You might say, "I can live with the corner cases" and I would agree that optimizing for those isn't worthwhile.BUT! Think about why they're able to do that.These two lines really serve to summarize the incoherent blithering that was jcr's post. What I think may be worthwhile is understanding the circumstances of those anomalies and figuring out why they occur and how to "incent" management to ensure that they don't occur.